tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post8482652385123642372..comments2023-06-13T10:36:03.712-05:00Comments on Bilgrimage: The Unclothed Emperor: Sarah Palin and Catholic VotersWilliam D. Lindseyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-27272964912318157662008-09-04T13:57:00.000-05:002008-09-04T13:57:00.000-05:00Colleen, I hadn't thought of the downside of this ...Colleen, I hadn't thought of the downside of this political discussion for hockey fans--but you're right, it involves you all in a personal way! And I know from my years studying in Canada how intensely folks react to that sport and those who play it.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad to know there are some hockey moms like you who speak a language that makes a little sense to me.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-21673903115274984472008-09-04T13:47:00.000-05:002008-09-04T13:47:00.000-05:00I don't Bill, we may see this whole family on Jerr...I don't Bill, we may see this whole family on Jerry Springer before this is all done.<BR/><BR/>On a personal note, as a rabid hockey fan myself, these folks aren't doing much for the reputation of the sport. Canadian and European hockey parents must be cringing. I know I am.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-41849321227168564142008-09-04T13:04:00.000-05:002008-09-04T13:04:00.000-05:00IronKnee, I appreciate the response--and to me, yo...IronKnee, I appreciate the response--and to me, you didn't sound negative in your comment. I was just talking over lunch to a mother with two teens now in college, and she was saying (in the context of this same discussion) that she emphasizes to her teens how important it is to remember anything they put on a site like MySpace will one day come back to them.<BR/><BR/>You're just quoting what Levi Johnston wrote, after all.<BR/><BR/>I find it strange--really appalling, to be honest--that these young folks are being put front row center in a political campaign, by the very folks who have tried to tell us their family is off-limits. I suppose it's inevitable that, if you declare yourself to be a model family, people will want to gawk.<BR/><BR/>But when a teenaged daughter is dealing with a pregnancy and is not married? This has to be excruciating for her.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-50395057537251789862008-09-04T10:54:00.000-05:002008-09-04T10:54:00.000-05:00I probably sounded pretty negative in my last comm...I probably sounded pretty negative in my last comment about Levi Johnston, so I should balance that with a positive note. He's 18 years old, he has a "big potential" (new code word?), and he's only been arrested once.IronKneehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06960578366044341478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-15622258465164527812008-09-04T10:37:00.000-05:002008-09-04T10:37:00.000-05:00And let's not forget the splendid and classy "baby...And let's not forget the splendid and classy "baby daddy," Levi Johnston. He described himself in his MySpace profile as follows:<BR/><BR/>"I'm a f**kin' redneck who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes. But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some sh*t and just f**kin' chillin' I guess. Ya f*ck with me I'll kick ass."<BR/><BR/>Only he didn't leave out the vowels. Sarah Palin is now parading him on stage at the RNC as her future son-in-law and another exemplar of family values.IronKneehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06960578366044341478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-49562517885016022682008-09-03T14:02:00.000-05:002008-09-03T14:02:00.000-05:00Colleen, you say, "Apparently her husband Todd has...Colleen, you say, "Apparently her husband Todd has unlimited access to her Alaskan office, sits in the executive chair no less. Who did Alaska really elect as governor?"<BR/><BR/>Excellent point, and one that underscores my argument that Palin's religious worldview is dangerous. Susan Brooks Thisthethwaite, a theologian who teaches at Univ. of Chicago, has written an editorial for the Washington Post noting that Palin's brand of religion requires women to submit to their husbands.<BR/><BR/>Which would mean, as Thistlethwaite notes, that it wouldn't be Palin, but her husband, making decisions if she occupies the v-p chair. You know, the one that once belonged to an Alaskan separatist party and addressed its convention....<BR/><BR/>The Thistlethwaite editorial is at http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/susan_brooks_thistlethwaite/2008/09/palin_is_she_subject_to_her_hu.htmlWilliam D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-83851851014627821422008-09-03T13:45:00.000-05:002008-09-03T13:45:00.000-05:00Great insights Amanda, and thanks Bill for posting...Great insights Amanda, and thanks Bill for posting this. I, myself, am still too incoherent to write anything remotely sensible. I understand exactly where Amanda is coming from.<BR/><BR/>I too, did not know that Palin was pregnant when they eloped. No wonder the Abstinence Only message didn't get through to her daughter.<BR/><BR/>Bill, this piece is a brilliant expose of the twisted vicious logic of the religious right. When you wrote about Murphy Brown and the out of wedlock baby controversy I just laughed. What a perfect choice to expose this blatant hypocrisy. <BR/><BR/>However, when you also wrote that Palin prevented funding for unwed mothers in Alaska, I wasn't laughing. <BR/><BR/>I wasn't laughing when she allowed the righteous right to use her son Trig as a political football. <BR/><BR/> I wasn't laughing when I saw the pictures of her daughter holding Trig to cover up her as of yet unannounced pregancy. <BR/><BR/>I wasn't laughing when I heard she practiced the ever so courageous sport of hunting from helicopters. <BR/><BR/>I wasn't laughing when the president of the NRA gushingly stated: “How can you go wrong with a moose burger-eating, fishing governor?” <BR/><BR/>And I haven't been laughing as the pro life bunch lauds her and her family as perfect examples of Family Values.<BR/><BR/>I keep thinking of all the crummy paying jobs I took so I could spend more time with my own daughter. All the opportunities turned down, all the ambition stifled. I cannot imagine towing small children around in a wagon showing them off in the furtherance of my own political ambition. I can't imagine my own mother who had a family of five leaving us high and dry to pursuit political ambition, essentially leaving us to raise each other.<BR/><BR/>I just read another article which makes me cringe. Apparently her husband Todd has unlimited access to her Alaskan office, sits in the executive chair no less. Who did Alaska really elect as governor?<BR/><BR/> For all the bashing Billary took as a couple, the boundaries seem even more enmeshed with the Palins. All in all this is no laughing matter. It's sickening scarey shit, and what little respect I had for McCain is entirely evaporated. Long live independent bloggers.colkochhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03432916690101599393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-34338443157973275202008-09-03T13:44:00.000-05:002008-09-03T13:44:00.000-05:00Amanda, these are powerful first-hand observations...Amanda, these are powerful first-hand observations. They mirror observations shared with me by a Mennonite family I met in graduate school. The husband was a classmate of mine. They had lived on the West Bank and saw much discrimination against the Palestinians.<BR/><BR/>To my mind, what's objectionable in the worldview Palin represents is how it twists biblical passages into some kind of justification for everything Israel does. I think that kind of religious gloss to give automatic justifications to what ANY nation does, including our own, is very dangerous. It's a kind of idolatry.<BR/><BR/>I can certainly understand the defensiveness of Israel and the passionate attachment many Americans have to the nation. At the same time, I don't think that passionate attachment should translate into a green light for human rights violations--particularly when bizarre apocalyptic views that distort the bible are used to justify that approach.<BR/><BR/>As an aside that's not really an aside, I always find it especially grievous when people who have endured terrible unmerited suffering turn around and inflict the same kind of suffering on others. The most painful experiences I've had as a gay man have occurred at the hands of African-American women.<BR/><BR/>I naively expect better of people who know what it feels like to have one's rights trampled on.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-17106620221904218622008-09-03T13:24:00.000-05:002008-09-03T13:24:00.000-05:00Ah, there's the point I missed. I meant to commen...Ah, there's the point I missed. I meant to comment on the whole everything-Israel-does-is-sacred idea. American support for Israel really irks me. My sister lives on the West Bank and is married to a Palestinian refugee there. They are having a lot of trouble getting him a green card to the US, not because of him, but because no one will listen. They were married in February, and my brother and I flew overseas to stay with her for a week and be with her in her marriage. I remember being very excited about going to a totally different culture. i read up on Israel and its history and learned a lot. What I did learn was what things were really like over there.<BR/><BR/>I'd always sort of dismissed my sister's sentiments about the situation because I know she had certain biases. She loves the Middle East and its culture, spent a year in Yemen before going to Palestine, and she always spoke about Israel in a degrading, disgusting way. When I landed in Tel Aviv, I was disappointed because everything was so modern, so westernized. I was surprised that things weren't so different. It was nighttime, and we drove all the way to Jenin. Once we crossed the checkpoint border (manned by army members with gigantic guns), suddenly, we were in a different world. We were in a world of poverty. The roads were so bad we needed motion sickness medicine just driving around. Everything smelled of sewage. People had nothing. My sister had always said that the reason they gave people such a hard time at the airport if they said they were going to the West Bank was because Israel didn't want the world to know how bad the situation was in Palestine. When I got there, I realized that this wasn't just a bias - this was true.<BR/><BR/>Over the course of a week, I spent a lot of time in both parts of the country. I grew to despite Israel. I heard all the stories about their human rights violations. About torture. About snipers shooting off the heads of 10-year-old girls. I watched the way the guards at checkpoints (which were all over the place) treated everyone. They aren't lying - Israel is NASTY. I can't believe we support them and give them millions - perhaps billions - of dollars every year. Israel is a terrorist nation, even if they don't terrorize the US. But the in the US, it's good manners to be friends with them. They're a good bully-ally. It's awful, and when I hear the rare person get up and speak against Israel, it makes me very happy.Amandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026099426503180472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-12942446066724412522008-09-03T13:03:00.000-05:002008-09-03T13:03:00.000-05:00"And I have no doubt at all, sadly, that if Obama'..."And I have no doubt at all, sadly, that if Obama's daughter were 17 and pregnant, there'd be all kinds of overt and covert racist rhetoric about the pregnancy."<BR/><BR/>Oh--ouch. I hadn't thought of that and just reading it made me wince. What a horrifying thought.<BR/><BR/>I guess it's politics and one should expect double-standards, but it certainly doesn't make them any easier to tolerate or swallow.Amandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026099426503180472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-60982347742551026952008-09-03T12:47:00.000-05:002008-09-03T12:47:00.000-05:00Amanda, your comment is not by any means babbly--i...Amanda, your comment is not by any means babbly--it's full of rich insights.<BR/><BR/>Re: abortion, I agree with your assessment that "we obviously just had 8 years of pro-life-supporting Bush, and did that change the laws?"<BR/><BR/>This is what baffles me about the continued willingness of so-called pro-life voters to keep on electing leaders who have no intention of changing the abortion laws, but are using this issue as a wedge issue to get elected.<BR/><BR/>And it's not like we don't know this. It has happened time after time, and many religious leaders are STILL encouraging their flocks to vote "pro-life"--when the record on the other side of the fence, the anti-life record, of these same leaders just becomes more impossible to ignore.<BR/><BR/>I'm struck, too, by what you say about Obama's own story insofar as it parallels the spin now being put on the Palin family story. I hadn't thought of it, but you're absolutely right there.<BR/><BR/>But, then, we use such a double standard in assessing our candidates, with race playing a major factor. It is coming out that Sarah Palin's various churches have made outrageous politico-religious statements that go way beyond anything Rev. Jeremiah Wright said.<BR/><BR/>And yet, not a peep of outrage about those statements by white pastors and white churches. And I have no doubt at all, sadly, that if Obama's daughter were 17 and pregnant, there'd be all kinds of overt and covert racist rhetoric about the pregnancy.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for reading, and more than that, reading my blog carefully and taking time to respond to it.William D. Lindseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07246026074693891965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5859942738506247433.post-28085208320043706392008-09-03T12:34:00.000-05:002008-09-03T12:34:00.000-05:00First off, I offer my apologies as I'm sure this c...First off, I offer my apologies as I'm sure this comment will probably run on, and in a babbly sort of way, too. It's hard to gather my thoughts in a comment and I have a lot of thoughts on this subject.<BR/><BR/>Now, to the topic at hand. Sarah Palin. So much to say about her.<BR/><BR/>1) I want to say right away that I'm not a traditional democrat. there are several places where I veer from the party beliefs, and abortion is one of them. I am pro-life. I believe choice comes in many forms, and I don't think a woman should be allowed to murder her baby for any reason. I don't believe in murder. I don't believe in it for war, for death penalty, or for abortion. I am anti-murder. A woman's choice is two-fold - she can choose her sexual practices, and in the case of rape/incest/etc, she can choose to put the baby up for adoption. I understand that there's a line - I have less of a problem, for instance, with an abortion done to save a mother's life - but on the whole, I view abortion as a means to irresponsibility. People have argued with me that if we don't allow abortion, girls will resort to coat hangers and poisons, but frankly, I don't care - that's their choice, too. I don't believe mothers should do their children's homework for them in order for their children to do well in school, either. If the children chose not to do their homework, they have to pay the consequences. That's how we learn in life - consequences.<BR/><BR/>that having been said, though, this isn't a major issue in the presidency. We obviously just had 8 years of pro-life-supporting Bush, and did that change the laws? No. What are people afraid of? If Obama gets elected, he'll allow abortions? Um...yeah, we already allow it in our country. I dont' get why this is such a major issue because nothing is even close to changing at this point, and neither candidate is going to make a dent in it. There are so many other topics that are hotter and more relevent. Unfortunately, I know people who vote strictly on abortion beliefs. The whole thing just boggles me. Why? We aren't fighting this political battle right now! If it was up for debate, sure, that'd make sense, but come on!<BR/><BR/>2) The idea of McCain picking Sarah Palin in order to win over the Hillary Clinton supporters is absurd and patronizing. As if we, as women, are stupid enough to just go wherever a woman is involved. I think that some of those Hillary fans, who had planned to vote for McCain just to "get even" with Obama for winning (in itself stupid logic) will now be swayed back to the democratic side because of this insult. I think McCain just dug his grave with this decision. Plain and simple.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, I know people who were on the fence who have decided to vote for McCain because of Ms. Palin. One girl I know said Sarah Palin "rocked" and is the perfect representative of all American women. Ah! I shudder to imagine this. Really, it makes no sense. That comment came from a woman who is a stay at home mom, and who believes all women should be stay at home moms. How in the world does Sarah Palin represent the stay at home moms of the world? Politics is like the ultimate career path! Maybe in her small-time world she had time to spend with her family, but if she got into the White House? No, I'm sorry, but she'd almost never see her kids. She'd be like the ultimate antithesis for what the religious right believes women should be. And they're promoting her? I don't get it. Personally, I think with five kids, one of them with Downs Syndrome and another pregnant, she needs to pick a career that will allow her to see more of her family. And not just because she's a woman! I don't know what her husband does but I would say the same thing about him. That many kids with that many problems need parents who pay attention to them even more than the rest of kids. I doubt the best thing for that family is to pull them into more neglect. And it confuses me to no end that the...hem..."family values" party would proclaim it a good thing for her to practically abandon her family to be the vice president.<BR/><BR/>3) Now, speaking of those "family values," I'm so sick and tired of hearing about them. How can the right say they have family values if they're the one leading the army against marriage equality? What - exclusive family values? We're going to deny people the opportunity to have families and yet say we're all about the promotion of families? Give me a break.<BR/><BR/>4) Abstinance education. Yeah. Maybe if she'd have supported equalized sex ed, her daughter wouldn't have gotten pregnant. I feel so sorry for the poor girl - 17, pregnant, for all that they say they're proud of her I'm sure her parents are totally ticked off and that she feels completely depressed for disappointing them, getting married to the teen father in what I'm sure will end up being a miserable marriage on its way to divorce, in the spotlight in the nation, totally unprepared for what's coming up. Her mother is using her as a political tool! Turn a bad situation to your advantage, take advantage of your children, exploit them, force them to conform to your beliefs. I think the lady should be in prison for that logic. Someone needs to talk to Bristol and let her know there's life out there, and options. No, I don't think she should get an abortion, but really, is marriage to the father the best choice? Why not give the kid up for adoption, or does the right's "family values" say adoption is unamerican? (hmm...I wrote a story about that once)<BR/><BR/>5) I didn't know that Sarah Palins' first son was born 8 months after she married. That's interesting. Do you find it ironic that while republicans are babbling away about family values and teen mothers keeping the baby etc that no one seems to realize that they could say the exact same thing on the other side of the fence? Obama's mother was 18 and his father left their family. She chose to keep him and raise him. Maybe she didn't have the option to get married - does that make her less pro-family? If Bristol's fiance jilts her, does that make Sarah Palin less qualified? The idea is absurd.<BR/><BR/>In conclusion, I'm just thankful that this lady has just about zero chance of getting into office. This was a poor, poor choice from the republican party. I know I missed some points in there, but I think I've said most of what I want to say. AGain, my apologies for the length and scattered nature...Amandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07026099426503180472noreply@blogger.com